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Kul intervju med Bjarne Stroustrup !

Hejsan !

Fick denna via en mailinglista. Tyckte att den kunde liva upp dagen hos er !

Följande är en intervju med Bjarne Strostrup.


On the 1st of January, 1998, Bjarne
Stroustrup: gave an interview
to the IEEE's 'Computer' magazine.

Naturally, the editors thought he would be
giving a retrospective
view of seven years of object-oriented
design, using the language
he created.

By the end of the interview, the interviewer
got more than he had
bargained for and, subsequently, the editor
decided to suppress its
contents, 'for the good of the industry' but,
as with many of these
things, there was a leak.

Here is a complete transcript of what was was
said, unedited, and
unrehearsed, so it isn't as neat as planned

You will find it interesting...


Well, it's been a few years since you changed the world of software design,
how does it feel, looking back?

Actually, I was thinking about those days, just before you arrived. Do you
remember?  Everyone was writing 'C' and, the trouble was, they were
pretty damn good at it. Universities got pretty good at
teaching it, too. They were turning out competent - I stress the
word 'competent' - graduates at a phenomenal rate.
That's what caused the problem.


Yes, problem. Remember when everyone wrote Cobol?

Interviewer:  Of course, I did too

Well, in the beginning, these guys were like demi-gods. Their salaries were high, and they
were treated like royalty.

Those were the days, eh?

Right. So what happened?  IBM got sick of it, and invested millions in training
programmers, till they were a dime a dozen.

That's why I got out. Salaries dropped within a year, to the point where being a
journalist actually paid better.

Exactly. Well, the same happened with 'C' programmers.

I see, but what's the point?

Well, one day, when I was sitting in my office, I thought of this little scheme, which
would redress the balance a little. I thought 'I wonder what would happen, if
there were a language so complicated, so difficult to learn, that nobody would
ever be able to swamp the market with programmers?  Actually, I got some of the
ideas from X10,  you know, X windows. That was such a bitch of a graphics 
system, that it only just ran on those Sun 3/60 things.  They had all the
ingredients for what I wanted. A really ridiculously complex syntax, obscure
functions, and pseudo-OO structure. Even now, nobody writes raw X-windows
code. Motif is the only way to go if you want to retain your sanity.

You're kidding...?

Not a bit of it. In fact, there was another problem. Unix was written in 'C',
which meant that any 'C' programmer could very easily become a systems
programmer. Remember what a mainframe systems programmer used to earn?

You bet I do, that's what I used to do.

OK, so this new language had to divorce itself from Unix, by hiding all the
system calls that bound the two together so nicely. This would enable guys who
only knew about DOS to earn a decent living too.

I don't believe you said that...

Well, it's been long enough, now, and I believe most people have figured out for
themselves that C++ is a waste of time but, I must say, it's taken them a lot
longer than I thought it would.

So how exactly did you do it?

It was only supposed to be a joke, I never thought people would take the book
seriously. Anyone with half a brain can see that object-oriented programming is
counter-intuitive, illogical and inefficient.


And as for 're-useable code' - when did you ever hear of a company re-using
its code?

Well, never, actually, but...

There you are then. Mind you, a few tried, in the early days. There was this
Oregon company - Mentor Graphics, I think they were called - really caught a
cold trying to rewrite everything in C++ in about '90 or '91. I felt sorry for
them really, but I thought people would learn from their mistakes.

Obviously, they didn't?

Not in the slightest. Trouble is, most companies hush-up all their major
blunders, and explaining a $30 million loss to the shareholders would have
been difficult. Give them their due, though, they made it work in the end.

They did?  Well, there you are then, it proves O-O works.

Well, almost. The executable was so huge, it took five minutes to load, on an HP
workstation, with 128MB of RAM. Then it ran like treacle. Actually, I thought
this would be a major stumbling-block, and I'd get found out within a week,
but nobody cared. Sun and HP were only too glad to sell enormously powerful
boxes, with huge resources just to run trivial programs. You know, when we had
our first C++ compiler, at AT&T, I compiled 'Hello World', and couldn't
believe the size of the executable. 2.1MB

What?  Well, compilers have come a long way, since then.

They have?  Try it on the latest version of g++ - you won't get much change
out of half a megabyte. Also, there are several quite recent examples for you,
from all over the world. British Telecom had a major disaster on their hands
but, luckily, managed to scrap the whole thing and start again. They were
luckier than Australian Telecom. Now I hear that Siemens is building a
dinosaur, and getting more and more worried as the size of the hardware gets
bigger, to accommodate the executables. Isn't multiple inheritance a joy?

Yes, but C++ is basically a sound language.

You really believe that, don't you?  Have you ever sat down and worked on a
C++ project?  Here's what happens: First, I've put in enough pitfalls to make
sure that only the most trivial projects will work first time. Take operator
overloading. At the end of the project, almost every module has it, usually,
because guys feel they really should do it, as it was in their
training course. The same operator then means something totally different in
every module. Try pulling that lot together, when you have a hundred or so
modules. And as for data hiding. God, I sometimes can't help laughing when I
hear about the problems companies have making their modules talk to each
other. I think the word 'synergistic' was specially invented to twist the
knife in a project manager's ribs.

I have to say, I'm beginning to be quite appalled at all this. You say you did
it to raise programmers' salaries?  That's obscene.

Not really. Everyone has a choice. I didn't expect the thing to get so much
out of hand. Anyway, I basically succeeded. C++ is dying off now, but
programmers still get high salaries - especially those poor devils who have to
maintain all this crap. You do realise, it's impossible to maintain a large
C++ software module if you didn't actually write it?

How come?

You are out of touch, aren't you?  Remember the typedef?

Yes, of course.

Remember how long it took to grope through the header files only to find that
'RoofRaised' was a double precision number?  Well, imagine how long it takes
to find all the implicit typedefs in all the Classes in a major project.

So how do you reckon you've succeeded?

Remember the length of the average-sized 'C' project? About 6 months. Not
nearly long enough for a guy with a wife and kids to earn enough to have a
decent standard of living. Take the same project, design it in C++ and what do
you get?  I'll tell you. One to two years. Isn't that great?  All that job
security,  just through one mistake of judgement. And another thing. The
universities haven't been teaching 'C' for such a long time, there's now a    
shortage of decent 'C' programmers. Especially those who know anything about
Unix systems programming. How many guys would know what to do with 'malloc',
when they've used 'new' all these years - and never bothered to check the return
code. In fact, most C++ programmers throw away their return codes. Whatever
happened to good ol' '-1'?  At least you knew you had an error, without
bogging the thing down in all that 'throw' 'catch' 'try' stuff.

But, surely, inheritance does save a lot of time?

Does it?  Have you ever noticed the difference between a 'C' project plan, and
a C++ project plan?  The planning stage for a C++ project is three times as
long. Precisely to make sure that everything which should be inherited is, and
what shouldn't isn't. Then, they still get it wrong. Whoever heard of memory
leaks in a 'C' program?  Now finding them is a major industry. Most companies
give up, and send the product out, knowing it leaks like a sieve, simply to
avoid the expense of tracking them all down.

There are tools...

Most of which were written in C++.

If we publish this, you'll probably get lynched, you do realise that?

I doubt it. As I said, C++ is way past its peak now, and no company in its
right mind would start a C++ project without a pilot trial. That should
convince them that it's the road to disaster. If not, they deserve all they
get. You know, I tried to convince Dennis Ritchie to rewrite Unix in C++.

Oh my God. What did he say?

Well, luckily, he has a good sense of humor. I think both he and Brian figured
out what I was doing, in the early days, but never let on. He said he'd help
me write a C++ version of DOS, if I was interested.

Were you?

Actually, I did write DOS in C++, I'll give you a demo when we're through. I have it
running on a Sparc 20 in the computer room. Goes like a rocket on 4 CPU's, and
only takes up 70 megs of disk.

What's it like on a PC?

Now you're kidding. Haven't you ever seen Windows '95? I think of that as my
biggest success. Nearly blew the game before I was ready, though.

You know, that idea of a Unix++ has really got me thinking. Somewhere out there,
there's a guy going to try it.

Not after they read this interview.

I'm sorry, but I don't see us being able to publish any of this.

But it's the story of the century. I only want to be remembered by my fellow
programmers, for what I've done for them. You know how much a C++ guy
can get these days?

Last I heard, a really top guy is worth $70 - $80 an hour.

See?  And I bet he earns it. Keeping track of all the gotchas I put into C++
is no easy job. And, as I said before, every C++ programmer feels bound by
some mystic promise to use every damn element of the language on every
project. Actually, that really annoys me sometimes, even though it serves my
original purpose. I almost like the language after all this time.

You mean you didn't before?

 Hated it. It even looks clumsy, don't you agree?  But when the book royalties
started to come in... well, you get the picture.

Just a minute. What about references?  You must admit, you improved on 'C'

Hmm. I've always wondered about that. Originally, I thought I had. Then, one
day I was discussing this with a guy who'd written C++ from the beginning. He
said he could never remember whether his variables were referenced or
dereferenced, so he always used pointers. He said the little asterisk always
reminded him.



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